4.3 December 1, 2020: President Trump is Irate After Barr Says There is No Significant Fraud

¶Attorney General Barr had been clear that DOJ was investigating claims of fraud. The Department simply was not turning up any real evidence of malfeasance, and certainly nothing that would overturn the election. Just as Barr feared, the President turned on DOJ anyway.

¶On November 29, 2020, Fox News’s Maria Bartiromo interviewed President Trump. It was his first TV interview since he lost his bid for reelection. The President claimed the election was “rigged” and rife with “fraud.”³⁷³⁷ Factba.se, “Interview: Maria Bartiromo Interviews Donald Trump on Fox News - November 29, 2020,” Vimeo, Nov. 29, 2020, available at https://vimeo.com/485180163; Fox News, “Trump Asks, ‘Where’s Durham?’ During First Interview Since the Election,” YouTube, Nov. 29, 2020, available at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szStcNBIL68; see also Alexis Benveniste, “Fox News’ Maria Bartiromo Gave Trump His First TV Interview Since the Election. It Was Filled with Lies,” CNN (Nov. 29, 2020), available at https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/29/media/bartiromo-trump-interview.Show full note President Trump repeated various conspiracy theories, leading with the claim that Dominion’s voting machines had “glitches,” which moved “thousands of votes from my account to Biden’s account.”³⁸³⁸ Factba.se, “Interview: Maria Bartiromo Interviews Donald Trump on Fox News - November 29, 2020,” Vimeo, Nov. 29, 2020, available at https://vimeo.com/485180163; Fox News, “Trump Asks, ‘Where’s Durham?’ During First Interview Since the Election,” YouTube, Nov. 29, 2020, available at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szStcNBIL68; see also Alexis Benveniste, “Fox News’ Maria Bartiromo Gave Trump His First TV Interview Since the Election. It Was Filled with Lies,” CNN (Nov. 29, 2020), available at https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/29/media/bartiromo-trump-interview.Show full note President Trump pointed to “dumps of votes,” a reference to the batches of mail-in ballots that had been tabulated later in the counting process.³⁹³⁹ Factba.se, “Interview: Maria Bartiromo Interviews Donald Trump on Fox News - November 29, 2020,” Vimeo, Nov. 29, 2020, available at https://vimeo.com/485180163; Fox News, “Trump Asks, ‘Where’s Durham?’ During First Interview Since the Election,” YouTube, Nov. 29, 2020, available at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szStcNBIL68; see also Alexis Benveniste, “Fox News’ Maria Bartiromo Gave Trump His First TV Interview Since the Election. It Was Filled with Lies,” CNN (Nov. 29, 2020), available at https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/29/media/bartiromo-trump-interview.Show full note He rambled off various other, spurious allegations, including that dead people voted in significant numbers.⁴⁰⁴⁰ Factba.se, “Interview: Maria Bartiromo Interviews Donald Trump on Fox News - November 29, 2020,” Vimeo, Nov. 29, 2020, available at https://vimeo.com/485180163; Fox News, “Trump Asks, ‘Where’s Durham?’ During First Interview Since the Election,” YouTube, Nov. 29, 2020, available at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szStcNBIL68; see also Alexis Benveniste, “Fox News’ Maria Bartiromo Gave Trump His First TV Interview Since the Election. It Was Filled with Lies,” CNN (Nov. 29, 2020), available at https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/29/media/bartiromo-trump-interview.Show full note

¶“This is total fraud,” the President said.⁴¹⁴¹ Factba.se, “Interview: Maria Bartiromo Interviews Donald Trump on Fox News - November 29, 2020,” Vimeo, at 4:20, Nov. 29, 2020, available at https://vimeo.com/485180163; Fox News, “Trump Asks, ‘Where’s Durham?’ During First Interview Since the Election,” YouTube, Nov. 29, 2020, available at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szStcNBIL68; see also Alexis Benveniste, “Fox News’ Maria Bartiromo Gave Trump His First TV Interview Since the Election. It Was Filled with Lies,” CNN (Nov. 29, 2020), available at https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/29/media/bartiromo-trump-interview.Show full note “And how the FBI and Department of Justice—I don’t know—maybe they’re involved, but how people are getting away with this stuff—it’s unbelievable. This election was rigged. This election was a total fraud.”⁴²⁴² “Interview: Maria Bartiromo Interviews Donald Trump on Fox News - November 29, 2020,” Vimeo, at 4:25, Nov. 29, 2020, available at https://vimeo.com/485180163; Fox News, “Trump Asks, ‘Where’s Durham?’ During First Interview Since the Election,” YouTube, Nov. 29, 2020, available at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szStcNBIL68; see also Alexis Benveniste, “Fox News’ Maria Bartiromo Gave Trump His First TV Interview Since the Election. It Was Filled with Lies,” CNN (Nov. 29, 2020), available at https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/29/media/bartiromo-trump-interview.Show full note

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¶“Where is the DOJ and the FBI in all of this, Mr. President?” Bartiromo asked.⁴³⁴³ Factba.se, “Interview: Maria Bartiromo Interviews Donald Trump on Fox News - November 29, 2020,” Vimeo, Nov. 29, 2020, available at https://vimeo.com/485180163; Fox News, “Trump Asks, ‘Where’s Durham?’ During First Interview Since the Election,” YouTube, Nov. 29, 2020, available at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szStcNBIL68; see also Alexis Benveniste, “Fox News’ Maria Bartiromo Gave Trump His First TV Interview Since the Election. It Was Filled with Lies,” CNN (Nov. 29, 2020), available at https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/29/media/bartiromo-trump-interview.Show full note “You have laid out some serious charges here. Shouldn’t this be something that the FBI is investigating? Are they? Is the DOJ investigating?” Bartiromo asked incredulously.⁴⁴⁴⁴ Factba.se, “Interview: Maria Bartiromo Interviews Donald Trump on Fox News - November 29, 2020,” Vimeo, Nov. 29, 2020, available at https://vimeo.com/485180163; Fox News, “Trump Asks, ‘Where’s Durham?’ During First Interview Since the Election,” YouTube, Nov. 29, 2020, available at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szStcNBIL68; see also Alexis Benveniste, “Fox News’ Maria Bartiromo Gave Trump His First TV Interview Since the Election. It Was Filled with Lies,” CNN (Nov. 29, 2020), available at https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/29/media/bartiromo-trump-interview.Show full note

¶“Missing in action,” the President replied, “can’t tell you where they are.”⁴⁵⁴⁵ Factba.se, “Interview: Maria Bartiromo Interviews Donald Trump on Fox News - November 29, 2020,” Vimeo, Nov. 29, 2020, available at https://vimeo.com/485180163; Fox News, “Trump Asks, ‘Where’s Durham?’ During First Interview Since the Election,” YouTube, Nov. 29, 2020, available at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szStcNBIL68; see also Alexis Benveniste, “Fox News’ Maria Bartiromo Gave Trump His First TV Interview Since the Election. It Was Filled with Lies,” CNN (Nov. 29, 2020), available at https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/29/media/bartiromo-trump-interview.Show full note He conceded that when he asked if DOJ and FBI were investigating, “everyone says yes, they’re looking at it.”⁴⁶⁴⁶ Factba.se, “Interview: Maria Bartiromo Interviews Donald Trump on Fox News - November 29, 2020,” Vimeo, Nov. 29, 2020, available at https://vimeo.com/485180163; Fox News, “Trump Asks, ‘Where’s Durham?’ During First Interview Since the Election,” YouTube, Nov. 29, 2020, available at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szStcNBIL68; see also Alexis Benveniste, “Fox News’ Maria Bartiromo Gave Trump His First TV Interview Since the Election. It Was Filled with Lies,” CNN (Nov. 29, 2020), available at https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/29/media/bartiromo-trump-interview.Show full note But he didn’t leave it there. “You would think if you’re in the FBI or Department of Justice, this is, this is the biggest thing you could be looking at,” President Trump said. “Where are they? I’ve not seen anything. I mean, just keep moving along. They go onto the next President.”⁴⁷⁴⁷ Factba.se, “Interview: Maria Bartiromo Interviews Donald Trump on Fox News - November 29, 2020,” Vimeo, Nov. 29, 2020, available at https://vimeo.com/485180163; Fox News, “Trump Asks, ‘Where’s Durham?’ During First Interview Since the Election,” YouTube, Nov. 29, 2020, available at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szStcNBIL68; see also Alexis Benveniste, “Fox News’ Maria Bartiromo Gave Trump His First TV Interview Since the Election. It Was Filled with Lies,” CNN (Nov. 29, 2020), available at https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/29/media/bartiromo-trump-interview.Show full note He claimed the FBI was not even investigating Dominion, adding that votes processed in its machines “are counted in foreign countries.”⁴⁸⁴⁸ Fox News, “Trump Asks, ‘Where’s Durham?’ During First Interview Since the Election,” YouTube, Nov. 29, 2020, available at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szStcNBIL68; “Interview: Maria Bartiromo Interviews Donald Trump on Fox News - November 29, 2020,” Vimeo, Nov. 29, 2020, available at ; Fox News, “Trump Asks, ‘Where’s Durham?’ During First Interview Since the Election,” YouTube, Nov. 29, 2020, available at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szStcNBIL68; see also Alexis Benveniste, “Fox News’ Maria Bartiromo Gave Trump His First TV Interview Since the Election. It Was Filled with Lies,” CNN (Nov. 29, 2020), available at https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/29/media/bartiromo-trump-interview. https://vimeo.com/485180163; see also Alexis Benveniste, “Fox News’ Maria Bartiromo Gave Trump His First TV Interview Since the Election. It Was Filled with Lies,” CNN (Nov. 29, 2020), available at https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/29/media/bartiromo-trump-interview.Show full note

¶None of this was true. Just 6 days earlier, Attorney General Barr had explained to President Trump how DOJ and FBI were investigating fraud claims. Barr also made it a point to emphasize that the Dominion claims were nonsense. The President simply lied. The “crazy stuff,” as Barr put it, was all Trump could cite.

¶Attorney General Barr then decided to speak out. He invited Michael Balsamo, an Associated Press (AP) reporter, to lunch on December 1st. Barr told the journalist that “to date, we have not seen fraud on a scale that could have effected a different outcome in the election.”⁴⁹⁴⁹ Michael Balsamo, “Disputing Trump, Barr Says No Widespread Election Fraud,” Associated Press, (Dec. 1, 2020, updated June 28, 2022), available at https://apnews.com/article/barr-no-widespread-election-fraud-b1f1488796c9a98c4b1a9061a6c7f49d.

¶That made the President irate.

¶Later that evening, Attorney General Barr met with President Trump at the White House. It was their second face-to-face meeting after the November election.⁵⁰⁵⁰ Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol, Transcribed Interview of William Barr, (June 2, 2022), pp. 23–24. Also attending the meeting were Pat Cipollone (Chief White House Counsel to the President), Pat Philbin (Deputy White House Counsel to the President), Eric Herschmann, and Barr’s chief of staff, Will Levi. Id. At first, President Trump didn’t even look at Attorney General Barr.⁵¹⁵¹ Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol, Transcribed Interview of William Barr, (June 2, 2022), pp. 23–24. The President “was as mad as I’ve ever seen him, and he was trying to control himself,” Barr said.⁵²⁵² Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol, Transcribed Interview of William Barr, (June 2, 2022), pp. 23–24. The President finally “shoved a newspaper” with the AP quote in Barr’s face.⁵³⁵³ Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol, Transcribed Interview of William Barr, (June 2, 2022), pp. 23–24.

¶“Well, this is, you know, killing me. You didn’t have to say this. You must’ve said this because you hate Trump—you hate Trump,” Barr remembered him saying.⁵⁴⁵⁴ Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol, Transcribed Interview of William Barr, (June 2, 2022), pp. 23–24. “No, I don’t hate you, Mr. President,” Barr replied. “You know, I came in at a low time in your administration. I’ve tried to help your administration. I certainly don’t hate you.”⁵⁵⁵⁵ Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol, Transcribed Interview of William Barr, (June 2, 2022), pp. 24–25.

¶President Trump peppered him with unsupported conspiracy theories.⁵⁶⁵⁶ Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol, Transcribed Interview of William Barr, (June 2, 2022), pp. 25–26. Because he had authorized DOJ and FBI to investigate fraud claims, Attorney General Barr was familiar with the conspiracy theories raised by the President. The “big ones” he investigated included claims such as: Dominion voting machines switched votes, votes had been “dumped at the end of the night in Milwaukee and Detroit,” non-residents voted in Nevada, the number of ballots counted in Pennsylvania exceeded the number of votes cast, as well as a story about a truck driver supposedly driving thousands of pre-filled ballots from New York to Pennsylvania, among others.⁵⁷⁵⁷ Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol, Transcribed Interview of William Barr, (June 2, 2022), pp. 11, 25–26. Under Attorney General Barr, DOJ would also investigate a false claim that a video feed in Fulton County captured multiple runs of ballots for former Vice President Biden. As explained in detail in Chapter 1 of this report, there was no truth to any of these allegations, but that didn’t stop President Trump from repeatedly citing these fictional accounts.

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¶“And I told him that the stuff that his people were shoveling out to the public was bullshit, I mean, that the claims of fraud were bullshit,” Barr recalled about the December 1st meeting.⁵⁸⁵⁸ Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol, Transcribed Interview of William Barr, (June 2, 2022), p. 25. “And, you know, he was indignant about that. And I reiterated that they wasted a whole month of these claims on the Dominion voting machines and they were idiotic claims.”⁵⁹⁵⁹ Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol, Transcribed Interview of William Barr, (June 2, 2022), p. 25.

¶President Trump repeated that there had been a “big vote dump” in Detroit.⁶⁰⁶⁰ Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol, Transcribed Interview of William Barr, (June 2, 2022), p. 25. But Attorney General Barr quickly parried this claim.⁶¹⁶¹ Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol, Transcribed Interview of William Barr, (June 2, 2022), p. 25. There was nothing suspicious in how the votes flowed into a central location, Barr explained, because that is how votes are always counted in Wayne County.⁶²⁶² Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol, Transcribed Interview of William Barr, (June 2, 2022), p. 25. Moreover, Barr pointed out that the President performed better in Detroit in 2020 than he had in 2016. “I mean, there’s no indication of fraud in Detroit,” Barr said.⁶³⁶³ Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol, Transcribed Interview of William Barr, (June 2, 2022), pp. 25–26. Barr explained that the “thing about the truck driver is complete, you know, nonsense.”⁶⁴⁶⁴ Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol, Transcribed Interview of William Barr, (June 2, 2022), pp. 25–26. DOJ and FBI had investigated the matter, including by interviewing the relevant witnesses.⁶⁵⁶⁵ Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol, Transcribed Interview of William Barr, (June 2, 2022), p. 26. There was no truck filled with ballots.

¶Nothing that Attorney General Barr said during that meeting could satisfy President Trump. So, the President shifted the focus to Barr. He complained that the Attorney General hadn’t indicted former FBI Director James Comey and that U.S. Attorney John Durham’s investigation into the origins of the FBI’s Crossfire Hurricane investigation hadn’t made more progress.⁶⁶⁶⁶ Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol, Transcribed Interview of William Barr, (June 2, 2022), p. 26. “Look, I know that you’re dissatisfied with me,” Barr said, “and I’m glad to offer my resignation.”⁶⁷⁶⁷ Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol, Transcribed Interview of William Barr, (June 2, 2022), p. 26. President Trump pounded the table in front of him with his fist and said, “Accepted.”⁶⁸⁶⁸ Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol, Transcribed Interview of William Barr, (June 2, 2022), p. 26.

¶White House lawyers Pat Cipollone and Eric Herschmann tracked Barr down in the parking lot after he left.⁶⁹⁶⁹ Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol, Transcribed Interview of William Barr, (June 2, 2022), p. 26. They convinced Barr to stay in the administration.⁷⁰⁷⁰ Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol, Transcribed Interview of William Barr, (June 2, 2022), pp. 26–28. But his days as Attorney General were numbered. President Trump was not going to stop spreading conspiracy theories. Nor would the President cease in his effort to co-opt DOJ for his own corrupt political purposes.

¶President Trump released a video on Facebook the very next day.⁷¹⁷¹ “Campaign 2020: President Trump Statement on 2020 Election Results,” C-SPAN, Dec. 2, 2020, available at https://www.c-span.org/video/?506975-1/president-trump-statement-2020-election-results; “Donald Trump Speech on Election Fraud Claims Transcript December 2,” Rev, (Dec. 2, 2020), available at https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts/donald-trump-speech-on-election-fraud-claims-transcript-december-2. He repeated many of the same lies, including the conspiracy theory about Dominion voting machines switching votes. The President also offered charts, falsely claiming that fraudulent “vote dumps” had swung the election against him.⁷²⁷² “Campaign 2020: President Trump Statement on 2020 Election Results,” C-SPAN, Dec. 2, 2020, available at https://www.c-span.org/video/?506975-1/president-trump-statement-2020-election-results; “Donald Trump Speech on Election Fraud Claims Transcript December 2,” Rev, (Dec. 2, 2020), available at https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts/donald-trump-speech-on-election-fraud-claims-transcript-december-2. Among the examples he cited was the supposed “vote dump” in Detroit, Michigan.⁷³⁷³ “Campaign 2020: President Trump Statement on 2020 Election Results,” C-SPAN, Dec. 2, 2020, available at https://www.c-span.org/video/?506975-1/president-trump-statement-2020-election-results; “Donald Trump Speech on Election Fraud Claims Transcript December 2,” Rev, (Dec. 2, 2020), available at https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts/donald-trump-speech-on-election-fraud-claims-transcript-december-2. Trump said: “Here’s an example. This is Michigan. At 6:31 in the morning, a vote dump of 149,772 votes came in unexpectedly. We were winning by a lot. That batch was received in horror. We have a company that’s very suspect. Its name is Dominion. With the turn of a dial or the change of a chip, you can press a button for Trump and the vote goes to Biden. What kind of a system is this?” Id.Show full note In fact, Barr had already debunked this and other claims.

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¶On December 3, 2020, Rudolph Giuliani appeared before the Georgia Senate Government Oversight Committee to allege that massive cheating had occurred during the election.⁷⁴⁷⁴ 11Alive, “Second Georgia Senate Election Hearing,” YouTube, at 1:56:30 - 1:57:15, 5:29:20 - 5:32:45, Dec. 3, 2020, available at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRCXUNOwOjw. Giuliani offered a video recorded on election night at the State Farm Arena in Atlanta, Georgia, as a key piece of evidence.⁷⁵⁷⁵ 11Alive, “Second Georgia Senate Election Hearing,” YouTube, at 1:56:30 - 1:57:15, 5:29:20 - 5:32:45, Dec. 3, 2020, available at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRCXUNOwOjw. Giuliani alleged that the video showed a secret suitcase of ballots being double- and triple-counted after Republican poll watchers had been inappropriately dismissed.⁷⁶⁷⁶ 11Alive, “Second Georgia Senate Election Hearing,” YouTube, at 0:33:30 - 0:58:00, Dec. 3, 2020, available at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRCXUNOwOjw. The Trump campaign also shared the video online. Donald J Trump, “Video from GA Shows Suitcases Filled with Ballots Pulled from Under a Table AFTER Poll Workers Left,” YouTube, Dec. 3, 2020, available at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVP_60Hm4P8.Show full note The video was selectively edited and showed nothing of the sort. The Georgia Secretary of State’s Office investigated and immediately debunked the claim, finding that the secret suitcase was just a secure box and nothing nefarious had occurred.⁷⁷⁷⁷ Gabriel Sterling (@GabrielSterling), Twitter, Dec. 4, 2020 6:41 a.m. ET, available at https://twitter.com/GabrielSterling/status/1334825233610633217?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1334825233610633217%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.gpb.org%2Fnews%2F2020%2F12%2F04%2Ffact-checking-rudy-giulianis-grandiose-georgia-election-fraud-claim. At the time, Gabe Sterling was the Chief Operating Officer in the Georgia Secretary of State’s Office.Show full note President Trump, Giuliani and others continued to push the lie anyway.

¶On December 4th, Attorney General Barr asked Byung J. (“BJay”) Pak, who was then the U.S. Attorney for the Northern District of Georgia, to independently investigate the State Farm claim. Barr told Pak that this was a “priority,” because “he was going to go to the White House for a meeting” and the “issue might come up.” Barr asked Pak to “try to substantiate the allegation made by Mr. Giuliani.”⁷⁸⁷⁸ Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol, Hearing on the January 6th Investigation, 117th Cong., 2d sess., (June 13, 2022), available at https://www.govinfo.gov/committee/house-january6th.

¶Pak watched the video from State Farm Arena and asked the FBI to investigate the matter further. Pak told the Select Committee that FBI agents “interviewed the individuals” shown in the video who were supposedly “double, triple counting” the ballots, and “determined that nothing irregular happened in the counting and the allegations made by Mr. Giuliani were false.”⁷⁹⁷⁹ Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol, Hearing on the January 6th Investigation, 117th Cong., 2d sess., (June 13, 2022), available at https://www.govinfo.gov/committee/house-january6th. And, as noted above, the supposed “suitcase” was a secure storage container used to store ballots. With this evidence in hand, Pak told Attorney General Barr that there was no substance to the allegations.⁸⁰⁸⁰ Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol, Transcribed Interview of Byung Jin Pak, (May 19, 2022), p. 19.