6.15 “POTUS…Likes the Crazies.”

¶As Katrina Pierson helped plan the Ellipse rally, she faced another complication. The “Stop the Steal” movement played an outsized role in promoting January 6th. And now, as the day approached, its leading voices wanted prime speaking gigs — perhaps even on the same stage as President Trump. Roger Stone, Alex Jones and Ali Alexander were all angling for significant stage time. Pierson knew they were trouble.

¶Photos of Roger Stone, Alex Jones and Ali Alexander appear on a screen during a Select Committee hearing on July 12, 2022. Photo by Anna Moneymaker/Getty Images

¶In her testimony before the Select Committee, Pierson cited several concerns, including that Jones and Alexander had played a prominent role in the November 2020 protest in Atlanta, Georgia. This was no ordinary protest. Jones and Alexander “had gone into the Georgia Capitol with some inflammatory rhetoric,” Pierson explained.⁴⁴⁰⁴⁴⁰ Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol, Transcribed Interview of Katrina Pierson, (Mar. 25, 2022), p. 41. When Pierson was asked if Jones and Alexander “surrounding the governor’s mansion” and “going into the Capitol” were the “kind of thing” that gave her pause, she responded: “Absolutely.”⁴⁴¹⁴⁴¹ Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol, Transcribed Interview of Katrina Pierson, (Mar. 25, 2022), p. 42. After the Georgia protest, Pierson explained, the Kremers — who had helped organize “Stop the Steal” activities — distanced themselves from Jones and Alexander.⁴⁴²⁴⁴² Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol, Transcribed Interview of Katrina Pierson, (Mar. 25, 2022), pp. 42-43.

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¶But there was an additional problem. President Trump wanted to include the “Stop the Steal” leaders in the January 6th event. As Pierson put it in a text message to Kylie Kremer: “POTUS . . . likes the crazies.”⁴⁴³⁴⁴³ Documents on file with the Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol (Katrina Pierson Production), KPierson0374 (December 30, 2020, Katrina Pierson text message to Kylie Kremer); Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol, Transcribed Interview of Katrina Pierson, (Mar. 25, 2022), p. 4. Pierson said that she believed this was the case because President Trump “loved people who viciously defended him in public.”⁴⁴⁴⁴⁴⁴ Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol, Transcribed Interview of Katrina Pierson, (Mar. 25, 2022), p. 86. But their “vicious” defenses of the President clearly troubled Pierson.

¶Pierson tried to trim the speaker lineup — which still included the “Stop the Steal” trio of Stone, Jones, and Alexander. She was initially vetoed by the White House after Deputy Chief of Staff for Communications Dan Scavino,⁴⁴⁵⁴⁴⁵ Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol, Transcribed Interview of Katrina Pierson, (Mar. 25, 2022), pp. 62-63. who had approved the “original psycho list.”⁴⁴⁶⁴⁴⁶ Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol, Transcribed Interview of Katrina Pierson, (Mar. 25, 2022), p. 84; Documents on file with the Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol, (Katrina Pierson Production), KPierson0924 (January 2, 2021, Katrina Pierson text message to Mark Meadows at 1:39 p.m. and 1:40 p.m.) At one point, she texted Scavino’s boss, Mark Meadows, saying: “Things have gotten crazy and I desperately need some direction.”⁴⁴⁷⁴⁴⁷ Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol, Transcribed Interview of Katrina Pierson, (March 25, 2022), p. 74; Documents on file with the Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol (Katrina Pierson Production), KPierson0921, (January 2, 2021, Katrina Pierson text message to Mark Meadows at 5:16 p.m.). She was concerned by the possibility of “crazy people” being included in the event, their incendiary role in Georgia, and the fact that people coming to Washington, DC were planning to protest at the U.S. Capitol.⁴⁴⁸⁴⁴⁸ Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol, Transcribed Interview of Katrina Pierson, (Mar. 25, 2022), pp. 76-77, 80-81.

¶Meadows told Pierson that she should take control of the situation and remove the possibility of controversial speakers.⁴⁴⁹⁴⁴⁹ Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol, Transcribed Interview of Katrina Pierson, (Mar. 25, 2022), pp. 75-77. Pierson agreed to do so.⁴⁵⁰⁴⁵⁰ Documents on file with the Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol (Katrina Pierson Production), KPierson0924 (January 2, 2021 Katrina Pierson text message to Mark Meadows at 5:49 p.m.). But the President remained an obstacle. During their January 4th meeting, Pierson tried to convince President Trump to minimize the role of these potentially explosive figures at the Ellipse. She offered to place them at a planned event the night before in Freedom Plaza or on other stages in DC on January 6th. She told the President to “[k]eep the fringe on the fringe”⁴⁵¹⁴⁵¹ Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol, Transcribed Interview of Katrina Pierson, (Mar. 25, 2022), p. 108; Documents on file with the Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol, (Katrina Pierson Production), KPierson180 (January 4, 2021, agenda for meeting with President Trump at 1:21 p.m.). and advised him to “[e]liminate convicted felons that could damage other speakers.”⁴⁵²⁴⁵² Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol, Transcribed Interview of Katrina Pierson, (Mar. 25, 2022), pp. 107-08; Documents on file with the Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol, (Katrina Pierson Production), KPierson0196 (Document titled: “Meeting w/ POTUS - January 4th 2021 at 3:30pm ET”).

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¶President Trump was still unwilling to remove them from the lineup entirely. The President instructed Pierson to give Stone a speaking slot on January 5th and asked for more information about Ali Alexander.⁴⁵³⁴⁵³ Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol, Transcribed Interview of Katrina Pierson, (Mar. 25, 2022), pp. 116-18. After discussing the matter with Scavino, President Trump also requested that Alexander be given a speaking slot. President Trump “brought up Ali [Alexander] . . . just keep him on stage not associated with POTUS or main event,” Scavino wrote.⁴⁵⁴⁴⁵⁴ Documents on file with the Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol, (Katrina Pierson Production), KPierson0906 (January 5, 2021, text message from Dan Scavino to Katrina Pierson at 4:23 a.m.).

¶In the end, the “Stop the Steal” leaders — Stone, Jones and Alexander — did not appear on the stage at the Ellipse on January 6th, although they did speak at other planned events, consistent with the President’s request about Alexander. “POTUS expectations are [to have something] intimate and then send everyone over to the Capitol,” Pierson explained in a text message to Justin Caporale and Taylor Budowich.⁴⁵⁵⁴⁵⁵ Documents on file with the Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol (Justin Caporale Production), Caporale_05_003987, (Jan. 3, 2021, Katrina Pierson text message to Justin Caporale and Taylor Budowich); see also Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol, Transcribed Interview of Katrina Pierson, (Mar. 25, 2022), p. 79; Documents on file with the Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol (Taylor Budowich Production), Budo-00714 (January 2, 2021, Katrina Pierson email to Caroline Wren and Taylor Budowich at 10:49 p.m.).Show full note Caporale redacted this text and others in his early production of documents to the Select Committee, and he only revealed them after they had already been produced by other witnesses.⁴⁵⁶⁴⁵⁶ Documents on file with the Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol (Justin Caporale Production), Caporale_02_000673-88, (Jan. 3, 2021, Justin Caporale text message to Katrina Pierson, redacted).

¶However, other incendiary voices — in addition to President Trump’s — were given time on the Ellipse stage. The Select Committee learned that President Trump’s aides warned him against the inclusion of figures like John Eastman⁴⁵⁷⁴⁵⁷ Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol, Deposition of Max Miller, (Jan. 20, 2022), pp. 81-83. Miller testified that he had not been involved in or paying attention to the conversation until the President directly addressed him about Giuliani. Miller’s testimony was not credible on this point. Miller said he did not take notes, yet in communications with people after the fact he recounted details about the President’s decision regarding speakers other than Giuliani, Eastman, Powell, Wood, and Flynn. See Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol, Deposition of Max Miller, (Jan. 20, 2022), p. 85 (stating that neither he nor Peede took notes); id. at p. 107 (confirming that he told Megan Powers on January 5th that President Trump cut Paxton from the list).Show full note and Rudolph Giuliani,⁴⁵⁸⁴⁵⁸ In the January 4 meeting with Pierson and Miller, President Trump initially indicated that Giuliani would not be able to speak at the Ellipse because he needed to be working on lobbying Members of Congress to block certification of the electoral college vote, yet another sign that the President intended January 6th to be a full-fledged effort to stay in power. Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol, Transcribed Interview of Katrina Pierson, (Mar. 25, 2022), p. 117.Show full note given their false claims about election fraud.⁴⁵⁹⁴⁵⁹ Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol, Deposition of Max Miller, (Jan. 20, 2022), pp. 81-83, 129-30. Both men, of course, ended up sharing a stage with him on January 6th.⁴⁶⁰⁴⁶⁰ User-Generated Clip, “John Eastman at January 6 Rally,” CSPAN, Mar. 24, 2021, available at https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4953961/user-clip-john-eastman-january-6-rally. Meadows himself directed that they be allowed to speak.⁴⁶¹⁴⁶¹ Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol, Deposition of Max Miller, (Jan. 20, 2022), pp. 115-116.